What an outstanding article, Roslyn. Well written and researched. Including some very insightful philosophical observations of your own. And although all of the very appropriate references and quotes that you included were helpful, it is quite clear to all people of conscience, simply by personal observation, that the Zionist Nazi Israeli state is the very personification of pure evil. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you are nevertheless accosted by some mindless apologist for the nazisraeli state who will offer a jumble of half-baked and irrelevant pseudo-reasoning to contradict this obvious conclusion, I'm confident that you will refute their babble without difficulty.
Thanks for those quotes. As you can imagine, there were so many that I could not use all of them. Jung is a favourite of mine for understanding the human psyche.
So much truth packed into this excellent article. I find it refreshing that you recognize the existence of evil, as I've seen so many deny it, even while decrying the current genocide. Thank you for sharing your insights.
Judaism was not invented in modern day Iraq. None of the Hebrew Scriptures prior to the monarchy are historical. Those stories were composed many centuries later than the period they supposedly reference. There was no such thing as an Israelite, and no alphabet for Hebrew, until well into the Iron Age. There was no such thing as Judaism until well after the Babylonian Captivity, no monotheism until quite late. There is no archaeological or DNA evidence for anything but Canaanite ancestry for this religion. What we know as the "Old Testament" was woven together from a whole raft of unrelated oral tales during the Persian period when Cyrus the Great allowed Israelites to return to Judah. Even then, most did not return, and many had not been taken into captivity in the first place. Those who returned were nobles and the the scribal class, who were the ones who had been taken captive in the first place. Many common people had never left Judah. There was no such thing as a "Torah" or a "Jew" at that point. That scripture was composed as a nationalist document to give the people a narrative to draw them together as a people, because they had nothing in common at that point. The rural people had no connection to the people "returning." They had no common stories or beliefs. Please read archaeologist William Dever's Beyond the Texts: An Archaeological Portrait of Ancient Israel and Judah, and Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?; Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed, and David and Solomon; and Jewish theologian Jacob Wright's Why the Bible Began, among others. Many scholars believe that there was no such thing as Judaism as we think of it today until about 100 years before Christ.
To clarify, the evidence to date is that when the Hebrew tribe called Judah, arrived in Palestine about 3000 years ago and the Egyptians made a note, it was said to have come out of what is now Iraq.
Your post is informative so perhaps I should have qualified my statement to say, it is believed Judaism was invented in what is now Iraq.
And from what I have read there is no historical or archaeological evidence for an Israel, or a David or Solomon either. These religious stories are not historical facts. Indeed there is no evidence that Jews/Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt so no reason to believe the stories about Babylon either.
As As Uri Avnery, of Gush Shalom, wrote before his death in 2018:
“The Egyptians were obsessive chroniclers. Many tens of thousands of tablets have already been deciphered. It would have been impossible for an event like the exodus to pass without being reported at length. Not if 600,000 people left, as the Bible tells it, or 60,000, or even 6000. Especially if during the flight a whole Egyptian army contingent, including war chariots, was drowned.
The same goes for the Conquest. Because of acute security concerns, after being invaded once from there, the Egyptians employed a host of spies, - travelers, merchants and others - to follow closely the events in neighboring Canaan, in every single one of its towns and at all times. An invasion of Canaan, even a minor one, would have been reported. Except for the periodic incursions of Bedouin tribes, nothing was recorded.
Moreover, the Egyptian towns mentioned in the Bible did not exist at the time the event is supposed to have happened. They did exist, however, when the Bible was written, in the first or second century BC.
There is no need to point out that in a hundred years of frantic archaeological searching by devout Christians and Zionist zealots, not a shred of concrete evidence for the conquest of Canaan has been found (nor that the Kingdoms of Saul, David or Solomon ever existed. “
Yes, the Babylonian Captivity is historical. Yes, David and Solomon are historical (as are the other monarchs). David and Solomon were not great kings, but they were monarchs (probably warlords). Yes, the northern kingdom of Israel was dissolved and the people dispersed into the Assyrian empire (those that did not flee south to Judah). Later the kingdom of Judah was dissolved and the nobility and priestly class hauled off into Babylon. Those events are historical and well attested. The Israelites were a real people who came together from disparate peoples when the Egyptian empire collapsed at the end of the Bronze Age. Slaves and servants from the coastal cities suddenly found themselves free agents and moved to the hill country. There they began to farm and raise livestock and form villages. Over time they developed a group identity and their own dialect, later language. At that point just like all people they began to tell stories and invent their own past. They worshipped all the same Canaanite gods as the other Canaanites, and didn't settle on Yahweh as their main god until the reign of King Josiah, right before the Babylonian Captivity. The religion did not solidify until they were in Babylon, and there was no scripture until 100 years later when they returned to Judah. Everything prior to David and Solomon is fiction, and was invented hundreds of years after the monarchy was no more. The kings are real--they exist not only in separate documents, but in archaeological finds.
I would also make the point it is irrelevant where Judaism was invented and most people on the planet do not actually care. Neither do they care if any of the stories told about Jews are fact or fabrication. Even if everything you said were true and there is no evidence that it is, that would still not give Jews a right to claim a grain of sand in Palestine or anywhere in the Middle East. Indeed, anywhere on earth.
It actually does not matter if the stories are factual, semi-factual or total fabrications. They count for nothing in any real sense.
But as Israeli, Uri Avnery stated, there is not a shred of evidence for them. Unfortunately for too long, too many people have assumed the Torah/Bible are factual and they are not.
If what you say is true why did Avnery state there is no evidence? And why is there no evidence?
There is no evidence Jews were ever in Egypt and in fact, at the time they supposedly escaped and headed for Palestine in the region of Canaan, it was an Egyptian colony so we are meant to believe they were running from the Egyptians to the Egyptians.
Wow. Why are all you pro-Islamists such ignorant mentally ill fantasists?
Even Uri Avinery, who is the bleeding edge of the Israeli far far communist left, says that the jews were in Judea many centuries before the Muslims. He has to -- it is a well documented fact. Unless of course, you are a mentally ill ignoramus and fantasist locked in a self-created echo chamber.
Jews were in Palestine long before Muslims absolutely. And they called their primitive tribal kingdom Judea.
That is interesting from a religious belief perspective but utterly irrelevant on every other count.
RELIGIONS DO NOT GET RIGHTS TO LAND, HOMELANDS OR SELF DETERMINATION AND THAT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS INCLUDING JEWS AND MUSLIMS.
It would not matter if a few Jews had been in Palestine for 3000 years and a few Muslims had been there for 2000 years because RELIGIONS DO NOT GET RIGHTS TO LAND.
By your criteria, because a few Jews camped in Palestine long ago and called it home, Muslims could claim India which they ruled for 600 years, Spain and a lot of Europe which they ruled for centuries. And Christians could claim Istanbul and much of Turkey which they ruled for more than a thousand years.
Is that seriously your position? Jews can grab a slab of Palestine and Muslims can grab all of India, Spain and much of Europe?????????????
You keep acting as if I've said things I have not. I have said three times now that everything prior to the monarchy is fictional. That means everything in Genesis, Exodus, Judges, etc. is fictional. You keep acting as if I've said they are not. What I said was that these stories were woven together and assimilated after the Babylonian Captivity in the Persian era for propaganda and nationalistic purposes. Israelites no longer had a king, nor was the state independent, so some way of forging a group identity was considered necessary. Thus a bunch of folk tales were smashed together to create a "historical" narrative. For example, Abraham and Isaac were probably not associated--were two entirely different unrelated "stories" until this period when they were made to be father and son. But there isn't a single historian who doesn't think the Assyrian dispersion and the Babylonian Captivity were historical events, because they are referred to in multiple historical documents. We know David existed (though he may have been a minor warlord), because later archaeological finds refer to him. We know the kings of Israel existed because rulers outside of Israel referred to them, and the diaspora of the Israelites was commemorated in Assyrian and Babylonia stelae, wall decorations and texts, and these kings are referred to by name outside of Israel. I can give you an extensive bibliography if you wish. William Dever in particular is probably THE most respected Holy Land archaeologist alive. Israel Finkelstein is a little more controversial. Uri Avnery is a politician and journalist, neither a historian nor an archaeologist.
I am sorry if I have misunderstood you. As I said before, even if everything you say is true and I have also done a lot of research and do not believe it is, it is irrelevant. It would not matter if Jews had spent 10,000 years in Palestine they would still have no right to claim a grain of sand in the name of their religion.
And for what it is worth, the greatest archaeological discoveries have been made by amateurs and not professionals. There is a wonderful book talking about this fact, Gods, Graves and Scholars by C.E. Ceram.
It is the objective eye of the amateurs, for historians as well, which often provides the greater truths. The use of the term Holy Land for Palestine is also a sign of subjectivity.
Agree with you about Israel today, but OMG-LOL. Yes, historians and archaeologists are all wrong, but amateurs do good archaeology. ROFL. Unsubscribed. JFC.
believed that God is a projection of the human psyche, and not an external entity. He argued that God is a symbolic representation of deeper psychological processes, and that humans have a tendency to project
Inner experiences onto the real world
He is replying to J/C religions
Blaming Hebrews for everything is stupid . Humans are a suicidal species. We have been killing ourselves off for fun and conquest since time began😆😈
.. know enough about archaeology to know that the Israelis lie about everything”
Bullshit .Einstein was Jewish and his theories considered correct thus overthrowing your weak assertion .
Einstein had an interest in Buddhism .He believed in Spinoza's god which is:
Spinoza on the Nature of God. As understood by Spinoza, God is the one infinite substance who possesses an infinite number of attributes each expressing an eternal aspect of his/her nature. He believes this is so due to the definition of God being equivalent to that of substance, or that which causes itself.
We are Human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill, today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill, today.
Yes I know but the US while it could stop it all in an instant is still supported by lackey allies. If Britain, Germany, Australia etc., said NO and stopped anything and everything which enabled this slaughter then the US would stand totally alone and have to call itself to account.
The world has created the horror that is Israel even if the US has played the biggest part because its Government and corridors of power are infiltrated by Zionists, Israelis and Jews who act as double agents in the interests of the Zionist State and against the interests of Americans.
Einstein was not Jewish. His parents were atheists and he was educated by the Catholics. He expressed spiritual views as an adult and had grave concerns about Israel but he was not a committed follower of Judaism nor a believer in the Jewish God and so was not Jewish.
Genocide is not a matter of degree. Just as no murderer can make a case saying, I only killed 47 people and he killed 48.
THERE IS NO OTHER STATE FOUNDED THROUGH COLONISATION WHICH IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE AND SEEKING TO EXTERMINATE THE NATIVE PEOPLE OF THE LAND AS ISRAEL IS DOING.
Yes, the US has killed millions and is barbaric and it has for the moment, killed more than Israel and is indeed the reason why Israel can inflict this genocide, BUT, Israel is a brutal colonial occupier seeking to exterminate 6 million people, 8 million if we count those living in what is called Israel, as a matter of policy and on that count, stands alone in the world for the level of evil it commits.
Yeah Isreal learnt its ways from its NAZI and American masters
As what you stated in caps lock is a half truth.
The Indian wars was an attempt to decimate the
native population .
. Humans have been killing thier own kind for sport and conquest since time began , wars seem worst now cause we see it in real time. All colonization is brutal ,
why cherry pick now ?
I hate what is happening in Gaza. Netanyahu is a war criminal with his regime should all be executed chopped up and fed to the crocodiles
I agree with you to some degree. All colonisation is at times brutal but not always. Ask the British, they were violently colonised a dozen times but they got over it and made something of themselves.
For example, by the time they got to Australia in 1788, they were more civilized in regard to native peoples.
The problem I have with modern attitudes to colonisation is that they blame Anglo-Europeans and completely ignore the fact that all peoples have colonised and if they had not Africa would be very crowded.
The American Indians colonised and savagely so. As did Polynesians, Asians, Africans and yet people only talk about Anglo-Europeans. I find that position to be racist because it is holding Anglo-Europeans to a higher standard and patronising the rest. When Maoris colonised New Zeland about 400 years before the British got there they solved all future problems by killing and eating the native people. When the British arrived in the 19th century they wrote a Treaty with them. Eating them would have solved a lot of future problems but it was, of course, uncivilized even if effective.
Humans have strived to evolve and become more civilized and that is why when Israel is doing what the Romans did in 149BC they are to be condemned even more vigorously. More so because they claim to be a Western democracy. Hypocrisy writ large.
I will desist from caps lock in comments to you if it is that upsetting.
It is irrelevant if the US has killed more people than Israel. You cannot compare a State which began in the 16th century, some 400 and more years ago, with one which began less than a century ago and is committing atrocities in the 21st century.
For example, the Romans destroyed Carthage in revenge, more than 2000 years ago, exterminated most of its people and eradicated the country. It would be dishonest to use that as a comparison for what Israel is doing today even if it is the same thing because the circumstances in 149BC are very different to those in 2025 AD.
The only valid comparisons for Israel are:
What other nation claiming to be a Western democracy is committing genocide against the native people?
What other nation claiming to be a Western democracy has denied human and civil rights and full citizenship to the native people?
What other nation claiming to be a Western democracy has a policy that the native people of the land are subhuman?
I can think of none.
And how does Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians across 76 years fit with modern values of rule of law, democracy, human rights, justice and common human decency?
Firstly, human history is littered with genocides. Rummaging through the past does not work.
Israeli genocide in the 21st century cannot be compared to genocidal events in centuries past, not even in the US. that is simple logic. You cannot retrofit modern values to the past. Actions in the 15h, 16th, 17th,, 18th and 19th centuries must be assessed in the light of those times, just as Israel's actions in the 20th and 21st century can be assessed in the light of modern values.
Let me put it this way as comparisons:
The US was not colonised from the start with a policy of extermination of the native people. ISRAEL WAS.
The US did not have a constant policy of genocide from the time the first settlers arrived. ISRAEL DID AND DOES.
The US despite some genocidal events, ultimately gave full rights as citizens to the native people. ISRAEL NEVER HAS.
The US has made some attempts for reparation and compensation and Canada and Australia, also founded through colonisation have made even more. ISRAEL HAS MADE NONE.
The US has never had an official policy that the native people of the land were subhuman. ISRAEL HAD AND HAS.
The US does not give superior rights to followers of one religion. ISRAEL DOES.
The US is a democracy. ISRAEL IS NOT, IT IS AN APARTHEID STATE.
“… and know enough about archaeology to know that the Israelis lie about everything”
Wow! I guess you won the argument!😂
Regardless, you can push your irrelevant (and irrational) arguments because what you cannot do is pretend away reality. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Deal with reality.
I do apologise for my trite response that the Israelis lie about everything but in fact it is a fact that they do. Yes, there are always some with integrity but the power of propaganda in Israel is so great that few dare to challenge the narrative. I have been to museums in what is called Israel and it is very clear what they call Israeli is Roman, Greek, Egyptian and Palestinian. What's in a name? A lot when it is propaganda.
Oh it is not about winning. it is about presenting facts. There is not a shred of real evidence for any of the claims you make, AND EVEN IF THERE WERE IT IS IRRELEVANT AND DOES NOT GIVE JEWS THE RIGHT TO CLAIM A GRAIN OF SAND ON PLANET EARTH INCLUDING PALESTINE.'
Your religious fairy stories count for nothing. Every single religious story could have a factual base and it would still count for absolutely nothing.
Palestine belongs to the Palestinian people and no-one else. Christians would have more claim on Palestine than Jews since Judaism was invented in what is now Iraq. BUT RELIGIONS DO NOT GET LANDS, HOMELANDS, SELF DETERMINATION OR STATES SO IT MATTERS NOT A WHIT.
I should have been clearer. IT IS NOT ABOUT WINNING IN EACH EXCHANGE OR THE DEBATE.
But I firmly do believe that principles of justice, rule of law, democracy, human rights and common human decency will ultimately win against evil and I am more than happy to belong to that team.
If you are saying valid condemnation of the evil that is Israel represents a hatred of Jews then you are the one who hates Jews because you are saying that occupation, colonisation, child murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, torture, theft, sadistic cruelty, bestial savagery and evil injustice are Judaic and Jewish values and practices. Shame on you.
All of those things are Zionist Israel and I do not believe those atrocities reflect or represent Judaism or real Jews.
as to losing, it is evil which has lost and that means Sickrael has lost. It is loathed and detested around the world, and rightly so, its colonists are leaving in droves, its economy is in tatters, its soldiers are mentally ill and so sadistically sick they are killing themselves, AND IT HAS FAILED TO DEFEAT EITHER THE PALESTINIAN OR LEBANESE RESISTANCE - THAT IS LOSING.
The world is on the side of Palestine and Israel has no credibility, is now recognised as not just illegal but p0ure evil and a blight on the world and Judaism - that is losing.
Israel is recognised as the greatest intentional mass murderer of children in human history and its flag equates with the Swastika - THAT IS LOSING.
When the gates to the Gaza concentration camp are opened and international aid workers enter, it will replace Auschwitz as a far greater evil.
Let us hope every adult Israeli who has ever served in the military, which is most of them, is charged with genocide and their assets confiscated to pay for the rebuilding of Palestine and the suffering of the Palestinians over 76 years.
Let us also hope that the world eradicates the State of Hate and Zionist Israel is torn from the pages of history as one of the greatest evils we have ever known.
Been there and know enough about archaeology to know that the Israelis lie about everything. What is being dug up in Palestine and the bit called Israel is mostly Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Palestinian and not what the Israelis claim.
As Israeli Uri Avnery said in 2018 before he died, there is not a shred of evidence for any of these kingdoms, despite 70 years of searching and digging. It is religious fairy stories.
But, let me add, even if evidence did come to light that the Kingdom of David existed it would matter not a screaming toss. Religions do not get rights to land and no-one gets to make retrospective claims on land because some followers or ancestors camped there for a time.
If they did then Muslims could claim India which they ruled for 600 years, as well as Spain and much of Europe and the Christians could take Istanbul and much of Turkey which they ruled for more than a thousand years. Christians could also claim Bombay, Madras, and most American, Canadian, Australian, South African, New Zealand, and many Asian cities which they founded.
And the Greeks could take back Barcelona and Alexandria which they founded; the Italians London and Bath and many other British cities which they founded; the Scandinavians York and many other British cities which they founded as well as Moscow, Kiev and many other cities in Russia.
THE EGYPTIANS DID NOT TALK ABOUT ISRAEL BECAUSE IT DID NOT EXIST. It is a religious fairy story. At this point anyway. Sure, at some point in history a hieroglyph may be transcribed which refers to an Israel but so far that has not happened.
What Egyptologists do know is that the Egyptians made a note when a tribe called Judah arrived in Palestine around 3000 years ago. They wandered in from what is now Iraq. Colonists then as now.
At that point the Egyptians had been writing, carving in stone, notes about the Palestinians and Palestine for more than 2000 years. Palestine was ancient when Judaism was invented and when a few Jews set up camp in Palestine.
No-one of sound mind can have the slightest doubt that the Exodus never happened. Neither the Exodus, nor the wandering in the desert, nor the conquest of Canaan. As Uri Avnery wrote before his death in 2018:
“The Egyptians were obsessive chroniclers. Many tens of thousands of tablets have already been deciphered. It would have been impossible for an event like the exodus to pass without being reported at length. Not if 600,000 people left, as the Bible tells it, or 60,000, or even 6000. Especially if during the flight a whole Egyptian army contingent, including war chariots, was drowned.
The same goes for the Conquest. Because of acute security concerns, after being invaded once from there, the Egyptians employed a host of spies, - travelers, merchants and others - to follow closely the events in neighboring Canaan, in every single one of its towns and at all times. An invasion of Canaan, even a minor one, would have been reported. Except for the periodic incursions of Bedouin tribes, nothing was recorded.
Moreover, the Egyptian towns mentioned in the Bible did not exist at the time the event is supposed to have happened. They did exist, however, when the Bible was written, in the first or second century BC.
There is no need to point out that in a hundred years of frantic archaeological searching by devout Christians and Zionist zealots, not a shred of concrete evidence for the conquest of Canaan has been found (nor that the Kingdoms of Saul, David or Solomon ever existed. “
What an outstanding article, Roslyn. Well written and researched. Including some very insightful philosophical observations of your own. And although all of the very appropriate references and quotes that you included were helpful, it is quite clear to all people of conscience, simply by personal observation, that the Zionist Nazi Israeli state is the very personification of pure evil. Although I wouldn't be surprised if you are nevertheless accosted by some mindless apologist for the nazisraeli state who will offer a jumble of half-baked and irrelevant pseudo-reasoning to contradict this obvious conclusion, I'm confident that you will refute their babble without difficulty.
Really a masterful treatment of the subject. Thank you!
Excellent article, Roslyn! Two additions to your sources which do not mention evil specifically, but still cast light upon its origins.
C. G. Jung: "Where love stops, power begins, and violence, and terror."
Krishnamurti: "Man does not know how to deal with his fears; therefore, he escapes from them into violence, brutality, arrogance, bitterness."
Thanks for those quotes. As you can imagine, there were so many that I could not use all of them. Jung is a favourite of mine for understanding the human psyche.
If you can give the other guy a read (J.Krishnamurti), you will also find in him a great source for understanding humanity
I have read Krishnamurti and a number of other Indian philosophers.
No wonder you're so freaking Deep 😅
I also lived in India for more than four years and four African countries for many years. :)
Nice! If Nigeria isn't one of those 4 African countries then we need to change that ASAP 😉
So much truth packed into this excellent article. I find it refreshing that you recognize the existence of evil, as I've seen so many deny it, even while decrying the current genocide. Thank you for sharing your insights.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhaWQVNuWmo
Judaism was not invented in modern day Iraq. None of the Hebrew Scriptures prior to the monarchy are historical. Those stories were composed many centuries later than the period they supposedly reference. There was no such thing as an Israelite, and no alphabet for Hebrew, until well into the Iron Age. There was no such thing as Judaism until well after the Babylonian Captivity, no monotheism until quite late. There is no archaeological or DNA evidence for anything but Canaanite ancestry for this religion. What we know as the "Old Testament" was woven together from a whole raft of unrelated oral tales during the Persian period when Cyrus the Great allowed Israelites to return to Judah. Even then, most did not return, and many had not been taken into captivity in the first place. Those who returned were nobles and the the scribal class, who were the ones who had been taken captive in the first place. Many common people had never left Judah. There was no such thing as a "Torah" or a "Jew" at that point. That scripture was composed as a nationalist document to give the people a narrative to draw them together as a people, because they had nothing in common at that point. The rural people had no connection to the people "returning." They had no common stories or beliefs. Please read archaeologist William Dever's Beyond the Texts: An Archaeological Portrait of Ancient Israel and Judah, and Who Were the Early Israelites and Where Did They Come From?; Israeli archaeologist Israel Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed, and David and Solomon; and Jewish theologian Jacob Wright's Why the Bible Began, among others. Many scholars believe that there was no such thing as Judaism as we think of it today until about 100 years before Christ.
To clarify, the evidence to date is that when the Hebrew tribe called Judah, arrived in Palestine about 3000 years ago and the Egyptians made a note, it was said to have come out of what is now Iraq.
Your post is informative so perhaps I should have qualified my statement to say, it is believed Judaism was invented in what is now Iraq.
And from what I have read there is no historical or archaeological evidence for an Israel, or a David or Solomon either. These religious stories are not historical facts. Indeed there is no evidence that Jews/Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt so no reason to believe the stories about Babylon either.
As As Uri Avnery, of Gush Shalom, wrote before his death in 2018:
“The Egyptians were obsessive chroniclers. Many tens of thousands of tablets have already been deciphered. It would have been impossible for an event like the exodus to pass without being reported at length. Not if 600,000 people left, as the Bible tells it, or 60,000, or even 6000. Especially if during the flight a whole Egyptian army contingent, including war chariots, was drowned.
The same goes for the Conquest. Because of acute security concerns, after being invaded once from there, the Egyptians employed a host of spies, - travelers, merchants and others - to follow closely the events in neighboring Canaan, in every single one of its towns and at all times. An invasion of Canaan, even a minor one, would have been reported. Except for the periodic incursions of Bedouin tribes, nothing was recorded.
Moreover, the Egyptian towns mentioned in the Bible did not exist at the time the event is supposed to have happened. They did exist, however, when the Bible was written, in the first or second century BC.
There is no need to point out that in a hundred years of frantic archaeological searching by devout Christians and Zionist zealots, not a shred of concrete evidence for the conquest of Canaan has been found (nor that the Kingdoms of Saul, David or Solomon ever existed. “
Yes, the Babylonian Captivity is historical. Yes, David and Solomon are historical (as are the other monarchs). David and Solomon were not great kings, but they were monarchs (probably warlords). Yes, the northern kingdom of Israel was dissolved and the people dispersed into the Assyrian empire (those that did not flee south to Judah). Later the kingdom of Judah was dissolved and the nobility and priestly class hauled off into Babylon. Those events are historical and well attested. The Israelites were a real people who came together from disparate peoples when the Egyptian empire collapsed at the end of the Bronze Age. Slaves and servants from the coastal cities suddenly found themselves free agents and moved to the hill country. There they began to farm and raise livestock and form villages. Over time they developed a group identity and their own dialect, later language. At that point just like all people they began to tell stories and invent their own past. They worshipped all the same Canaanite gods as the other Canaanites, and didn't settle on Yahweh as their main god until the reign of King Josiah, right before the Babylonian Captivity. The religion did not solidify until they were in Babylon, and there was no scripture until 100 years later when they returned to Judah. Everything prior to David and Solomon is fiction, and was invented hundreds of years after the monarchy was no more. The kings are real--they exist not only in separate documents, but in archaeological finds.
I would also make the point it is irrelevant where Judaism was invented and most people on the planet do not actually care. Neither do they care if any of the stories told about Jews are fact or fabrication. Even if everything you said were true and there is no evidence that it is, that would still not give Jews a right to claim a grain of sand in Palestine or anywhere in the Middle East. Indeed, anywhere on earth.
It actually does not matter if the stories are factual, semi-factual or total fabrications. They count for nothing in any real sense.
But as Israeli, Uri Avnery stated, there is not a shred of evidence for them. Unfortunately for too long, too many people have assumed the Torah/Bible are factual and they are not.
If what you say is true why did Avnery state there is no evidence? And why is there no evidence?
There is no evidence Jews were ever in Egypt and in fact, at the time they supposedly escaped and headed for Palestine in the region of Canaan, it was an Egyptian colony so we are meant to believe they were running from the Egyptians to the Egyptians.
Wow. Why are all you pro-Islamists such ignorant mentally ill fantasists?
Even Uri Avinery, who is the bleeding edge of the Israeli far far communist left, says that the jews were in Judea many centuries before the Muslims. He has to -- it is a well documented fact. Unless of course, you are a mentally ill ignoramus and fantasist locked in a self-created echo chamber.
Jews were in Palestine long before Muslims absolutely. And they called their primitive tribal kingdom Judea.
That is interesting from a religious belief perspective but utterly irrelevant on every other count.
RELIGIONS DO NOT GET RIGHTS TO LAND, HOMELANDS OR SELF DETERMINATION AND THAT APPLIES TO ALL RELIGIONS INCLUDING JEWS AND MUSLIMS.
It would not matter if a few Jews had been in Palestine for 3000 years and a few Muslims had been there for 2000 years because RELIGIONS DO NOT GET RIGHTS TO LAND.
By your criteria, because a few Jews camped in Palestine long ago and called it home, Muslims could claim India which they ruled for 600 years, Spain and a lot of Europe which they ruled for centuries. And Christians could claim Istanbul and much of Turkey which they ruled for more than a thousand years.
Is that seriously your position? Jews can grab a slab of Palestine and Muslims can grab all of India, Spain and much of Europe?????????????
You keep acting as if I've said things I have not. I have said three times now that everything prior to the monarchy is fictional. That means everything in Genesis, Exodus, Judges, etc. is fictional. You keep acting as if I've said they are not. What I said was that these stories were woven together and assimilated after the Babylonian Captivity in the Persian era for propaganda and nationalistic purposes. Israelites no longer had a king, nor was the state independent, so some way of forging a group identity was considered necessary. Thus a bunch of folk tales were smashed together to create a "historical" narrative. For example, Abraham and Isaac were probably not associated--were two entirely different unrelated "stories" until this period when they were made to be father and son. But there isn't a single historian who doesn't think the Assyrian dispersion and the Babylonian Captivity were historical events, because they are referred to in multiple historical documents. We know David existed (though he may have been a minor warlord), because later archaeological finds refer to him. We know the kings of Israel existed because rulers outside of Israel referred to them, and the diaspora of the Israelites was commemorated in Assyrian and Babylonia stelae, wall decorations and texts, and these kings are referred to by name outside of Israel. I can give you an extensive bibliography if you wish. William Dever in particular is probably THE most respected Holy Land archaeologist alive. Israel Finkelstein is a little more controversial. Uri Avnery is a politician and journalist, neither a historian nor an archaeologist.
I am sorry if I have misunderstood you. As I said before, even if everything you say is true and I have also done a lot of research and do not believe it is, it is irrelevant. It would not matter if Jews had spent 10,000 years in Palestine they would still have no right to claim a grain of sand in the name of their religion.
And for what it is worth, the greatest archaeological discoveries have been made by amateurs and not professionals. There is a wonderful book talking about this fact, Gods, Graves and Scholars by C.E. Ceram.
It is the objective eye of the amateurs, for historians as well, which often provides the greater truths. The use of the term Holy Land for Palestine is also a sign of subjectivity.
Agree with you about Israel today, but OMG-LOL. Yes, historians and archaeologists are all wrong, but amateurs do good archaeology. ROFL. Unsubscribed. JFC.
Zionist are bad ,but xtianity has killed 50-100 million in its history plus witch burning and other perversions.
I do not see much complaining about them
America is a completely warlike and barbaric country.
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between.
Oscar Wilde
America has killed way more people than Israel ever can.
https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf
As a species we are an experiment gone foul.
Animals fight over territory and when frightened.
Humans added religion which Jung stated”
believed that God is a projection of the human psyche, and not an external entity. He argued that God is a symbolic representation of deeper psychological processes, and that humans have a tendency to project
Inner experiences onto the real world
He is replying to J/C religions
Blaming Hebrews for everything is stupid . Humans are a suicidal species. We have been killing ourselves off for fun and conquest since time began😆😈
.. know enough about archaeology to know that the Israelis lie about everything”
Bullshit .Einstein was Jewish and his theories considered correct thus overthrowing your weak assertion .
Einstein had an interest in Buddhism .He believed in Spinoza's god which is:
Spinoza on the Nature of God. As understood by Spinoza, God is the one infinite substance who possesses an infinite number of attributes each expressing an eternal aspect of his/her nature. He believes this is so due to the definition of God being equivalent to that of substance, or that which causes itself.
Yes, he had a broad spiritual perspective.
This states Humanity to a tee
We are Human beings with the blood of a million savage years on our hands, but we can stop it. We can admit that we're killers, but we're not going to kill, today. That's all it takes. Knowing that we won't kill, today.
Robert Hamner, A Taste of Armageddon (Star
Yes I know but the US while it could stop it all in an instant is still supported by lackey allies. If Britain, Germany, Australia etc., said NO and stopped anything and everything which enabled this slaughter then the US would stand totally alone and have to call itself to account.
The world has created the horror that is Israel even if the US has played the biggest part because its Government and corridors of power are infiltrated by Zionists, Israelis and Jews who act as double agents in the interests of the Zionist State and against the interests of Americans.
Einstein was not Jewish. His parents were atheists and he was educated by the Catholics. He expressed spiritual views as an adult and had grave concerns about Israel but he was not a committed follower of Judaism nor a believer in the Jewish God and so was not Jewish.
Genocide is not a matter of degree. Just as no murderer can make a case saying, I only killed 47 people and he killed 48.
THERE IS NO OTHER STATE FOUNDED THROUGH COLONISATION WHICH IS COMMITTING GENOCIDE AND SEEKING TO EXTERMINATE THE NATIVE PEOPLE OF THE LAND AS ISRAEL IS DOING.
Yes, the US has killed millions and is barbaric and it has for the moment, killed more than Israel and is indeed the reason why Israel can inflict this genocide, BUT, Israel is a brutal colonial occupier seeking to exterminate 6 million people, 8 million if we count those living in what is called Israel, as a matter of policy and on that count, stands alone in the world for the level of evil it commits.
Caps locks is yelling to me
America has killed more people than Israel
https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/factsheets/fs_americas_wars.pdf
Yeah Isreal learnt its ways from its NAZI and American masters
As what you stated in caps lock is a half truth.
The Indian wars was an attempt to decimate the
native population .
. Humans have been killing thier own kind for sport and conquest since time began , wars seem worst now cause we see it in real time. All colonization is brutal ,
why cherry pick now ?
I hate what is happening in Gaza. Netanyahu is a war criminal with his regime should all be executed chopped up and fed to the crocodiles
I agree with you to some degree. All colonisation is at times brutal but not always. Ask the British, they were violently colonised a dozen times but they got over it and made something of themselves.
For example, by the time they got to Australia in 1788, they were more civilized in regard to native peoples.
The problem I have with modern attitudes to colonisation is that they blame Anglo-Europeans and completely ignore the fact that all peoples have colonised and if they had not Africa would be very crowded.
The American Indians colonised and savagely so. As did Polynesians, Asians, Africans and yet people only talk about Anglo-Europeans. I find that position to be racist because it is holding Anglo-Europeans to a higher standard and patronising the rest. When Maoris colonised New Zeland about 400 years before the British got there they solved all future problems by killing and eating the native people. When the British arrived in the 19th century they wrote a Treaty with them. Eating them would have solved a lot of future problems but it was, of course, uncivilized even if effective.
Humans have strived to evolve and become more civilized and that is why when Israel is doing what the Romans did in 149BC they are to be condemned even more vigorously. More so because they claim to be a Western democracy. Hypocrisy writ large.
I will desist from caps lock in comments to you if it is that upsetting.
It is irrelevant if the US has killed more people than Israel. You cannot compare a State which began in the 16th century, some 400 and more years ago, with one which began less than a century ago and is committing atrocities in the 21st century.
For example, the Romans destroyed Carthage in revenge, more than 2000 years ago, exterminated most of its people and eradicated the country. It would be dishonest to use that as a comparison for what Israel is doing today even if it is the same thing because the circumstances in 149BC are very different to those in 2025 AD.
The only valid comparisons for Israel are:
What other nation claiming to be a Western democracy is committing genocide against the native people?
What other nation claiming to be a Western democracy has denied human and civil rights and full citizenship to the native people?
What other nation claiming to be a Western democracy has a policy that the native people of the land are subhuman?
I can think of none.
And how does Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians across 76 years fit with modern values of rule of law, democracy, human rights, justice and common human decency?
No need for cap locks Try America. The Indian wars is the first genocide.
I find CAPS clarify some points.
Firstly, human history is littered with genocides. Rummaging through the past does not work.
Israeli genocide in the 21st century cannot be compared to genocidal events in centuries past, not even in the US. that is simple logic. You cannot retrofit modern values to the past. Actions in the 15h, 16th, 17th,, 18th and 19th centuries must be assessed in the light of those times, just as Israel's actions in the 20th and 21st century can be assessed in the light of modern values.
Let me put it this way as comparisons:
The US was not colonised from the start with a policy of extermination of the native people. ISRAEL WAS.
The US did not have a constant policy of genocide from the time the first settlers arrived. ISRAEL DID AND DOES.
The US despite some genocidal events, ultimately gave full rights as citizens to the native people. ISRAEL NEVER HAS.
The US has made some attempts for reparation and compensation and Canada and Australia, also founded through colonisation have made even more. ISRAEL HAS MADE NONE.
The US has never had an official policy that the native people of the land were subhuman. ISRAEL HAD AND HAS.
The US does not give superior rights to followers of one religion. ISRAEL DOES.
The US is a democracy. ISRAEL IS NOT, IT IS AN APARTHEID STATE.
What a load of crap. Moral inversion at its finest.
Since you fail to refute any facts presented or points made in the article we can only assume you admit you cannot. Thanks for that.
Moral inversion is those who support Evil.
“… and know enough about archaeology to know that the Israelis lie about everything”
Wow! I guess you won the argument!😂
Regardless, you can push your irrelevant (and irrational) arguments because what you cannot do is pretend away reality. Israel isn’t going anywhere. Deal with reality.
I do apologise for my trite response that the Israelis lie about everything but in fact it is a fact that they do. Yes, there are always some with integrity but the power of propaganda in Israel is so great that few dare to challenge the narrative. I have been to museums in what is called Israel and it is very clear what they call Israeli is Roman, Greek, Egyptian and Palestinian. What's in a name? A lot when it is propaganda.
Oh it is not about winning. it is about presenting facts. There is not a shred of real evidence for any of the claims you make, AND EVEN IF THERE WERE IT IS IRRELEVANT AND DOES NOT GIVE JEWS THE RIGHT TO CLAIM A GRAIN OF SAND ON PLANET EARTH INCLUDING PALESTINE.'
Your religious fairy stories count for nothing. Every single religious story could have a factual base and it would still count for absolutely nothing.
Palestine belongs to the Palestinian people and no-one else. Christians would have more claim on Palestine than Jews since Judaism was invented in what is now Iraq. BUT RELIGIONS DO NOT GET LANDS, HOMELANDS, SELF DETERMINATION OR STATES SO IT MATTERS NOT A WHIT.
“oh it’s not about winning…” Your “team” lost. Deal with it you Jew Hater.
I should have been clearer. IT IS NOT ABOUT WINNING IN EACH EXCHANGE OR THE DEBATE.
But I firmly do believe that principles of justice, rule of law, democracy, human rights and common human decency will ultimately win against evil and I am more than happy to belong to that team.
If you are saying valid condemnation of the evil that is Israel represents a hatred of Jews then you are the one who hates Jews because you are saying that occupation, colonisation, child murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, rape, torture, theft, sadistic cruelty, bestial savagery and evil injustice are Judaic and Jewish values and practices. Shame on you.
All of those things are Zionist Israel and I do not believe those atrocities reflect or represent Judaism or real Jews.
as to losing, it is evil which has lost and that means Sickrael has lost. It is loathed and detested around the world, and rightly so, its colonists are leaving in droves, its economy is in tatters, its soldiers are mentally ill and so sadistically sick they are killing themselves, AND IT HAS FAILED TO DEFEAT EITHER THE PALESTINIAN OR LEBANESE RESISTANCE - THAT IS LOSING.
The world is on the side of Palestine and Israel has no credibility, is now recognised as not just illegal but p0ure evil and a blight on the world and Judaism - that is losing.
Israel is recognised as the greatest intentional mass murderer of children in human history and its flag equates with the Swastika - THAT IS LOSING.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhaWQVNuWmo
When the gates to the Gaza concentration camp are opened and international aid workers enter, it will replace Auschwitz as a far greater evil.
Let us hope every adult Israeli who has ever served in the military, which is most of them, is charged with genocide and their assets confiscated to pay for the rebuilding of Palestine and the suffering of the Palestinians over 76 years.
Let us also hope that the world eradicates the State of Hate and Zionist Israel is torn from the pages of history as one of the greatest evils we have ever known.
“Real Jews” 😂 Yes I’m sure you are an expert on this topic just like your expertise in archaeology!
Seriously the more you type the stupider you proclaim yourself to be.
I will not respond to you again, so feel free to get in the last word Jew Hater.
Thank you so much for once again re-affirming you cannot mount a coherent rebuttal and the facts I presented stand. Keep up the good work.
Oh, real Jews are followers of the religion. There is no such thing as an atheist/secular Jew. They are the fakes. And most of them hate real Jews.
Go visit Jerusalem and the archaeological digs of the Kingdom of David. Deal with that simple fact.
Been there and know enough about archaeology to know that the Israelis lie about everything. What is being dug up in Palestine and the bit called Israel is mostly Greek, Roman, Egyptian, Palestinian and not what the Israelis claim.
As Israeli Uri Avnery said in 2018 before he died, there is not a shred of evidence for any of these kingdoms, despite 70 years of searching and digging. It is religious fairy stories.
But, let me add, even if evidence did come to light that the Kingdom of David existed it would matter not a screaming toss. Religions do not get rights to land and no-one gets to make retrospective claims on land because some followers or ancestors camped there for a time.
If they did then Muslims could claim India which they ruled for 600 years, as well as Spain and much of Europe and the Christians could take Istanbul and much of Turkey which they ruled for more than a thousand years. Christians could also claim Bombay, Madras, and most American, Canadian, Australian, South African, New Zealand, and many Asian cities which they founded.
And the Greeks could take back Barcelona and Alexandria which they founded; the Italians London and Bath and many other British cities which they founded; the Scandinavians York and many other British cities which they founded as well as Moscow, Kiev and many other cities in Russia.
See how silly it all is???????
THE EGYPTIANS DID NOT TALK ABOUT ISRAEL BECAUSE IT DID NOT EXIST. It is a religious fairy story. At this point anyway. Sure, at some point in history a hieroglyph may be transcribed which refers to an Israel but so far that has not happened.
What Egyptologists do know is that the Egyptians made a note when a tribe called Judah arrived in Palestine around 3000 years ago. They wandered in from what is now Iraq. Colonists then as now.
At that point the Egyptians had been writing, carving in stone, notes about the Palestinians and Palestine for more than 2000 years. Palestine was ancient when Judaism was invented and when a few Jews set up camp in Palestine.
No-one of sound mind can have the slightest doubt that the Exodus never happened. Neither the Exodus, nor the wandering in the desert, nor the conquest of Canaan. As Uri Avnery wrote before his death in 2018:
“The Egyptians were obsessive chroniclers. Many tens of thousands of tablets have already been deciphered. It would have been impossible for an event like the exodus to pass without being reported at length. Not if 600,000 people left, as the Bible tells it, or 60,000, or even 6000. Especially if during the flight a whole Egyptian army contingent, including war chariots, was drowned.
The same goes for the Conquest. Because of acute security concerns, after being invaded once from there, the Egyptians employed a host of spies, - travelers, merchants and others - to follow closely the events in neighboring Canaan, in every single one of its towns and at all times. An invasion of Canaan, even a minor one, would have been reported. Except for the periodic incursions of Bedouin tribes, nothing was recorded.
Moreover, the Egyptian towns mentioned in the Bible did not exist at the time the event is supposed to have happened. They did exist, however, when the Bible was written, in the first or second century BC.
There is no need to point out that in a hundred years of frantic archaeological searching by devout Christians and Zionist zealots, not a shred of concrete evidence for the conquest of Canaan has been found (nor that the Kingdoms of Saul, David or Solomon ever existed. “